In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Francis Fukuyama discuss why building things with your hands is an antidote to dependence on big tech, whether AI will erode the practical skills future generations need to survive, and what hobbyist robotics has in common with Ukraine’s battlefield ingenuity.
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robotics → discuss → ingenuity
In an event exclusively for readers of American Purpose and Persuasion, Yascha Mounk will be interviewing Francis Fukuyama about his life and thought at 5pm on Sunday, September 6 at The Abbey Centre, London.
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Mounk → interview → Centre
Paying subscribers of Persuasion and American Purpose can access a code for a free ticket here.
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subscribers → pay → ticket
We’re delighted to feature this conversation as part of our series on Liberal Virtues and Values.
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We → ’re → Virtues
This series, made possible with the generous support of the John Templeton Foundation, features content making the case that liberalism has its own distinctive set of virtues and values that are capable not only of responding to the dissatisfaction that drives authoritarianism, but also of restoring faith in liberalism as an ideology worth believing in—and defending—on its own terms.
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that → make → terms
This transcript has been condensed and lightly edited for clarity.
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transcript → condense → clarity
We started this series on a personal note, with the story of your family and your childhood.
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We → start → family
I thought in a sense we could end on a personal note.
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we → think → note
We’ll talk about some big issues, like artificial intelligence and the difficulty of getting things done in contemporary democracies, as well.
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things → talk → democracies
Yeah, well, one of the reasons for writing a memoir is that I actually wanted to have the opportunity to write about my hobbies, which have consumed an awful lot of my time during my life and actually are the things I am most interested in—just like Trump is obsessed with his ballroom, not the Iran war.
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Trump → write → ballroom
I see pictures of them cropping up on your Instagram every now and again.
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pictures → see → Instagram
I’ve cycled through a whole bunch of different ones.
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I → cycle → ones
Probably the longest-standing one was building furniture, which I started when I was living in Virginia, working at the State Department.
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I → stand → Department
That involved learning quite a lot of different skills, and I got into making some fairly ambitious things, like reproductions of Federal-style furniture.
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I → involve → furniture
It then shifted—I’ve always had this tech hobby too.
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It → shift → hobby
I’ve built computers, my own PCs, for myself ever since the mid-1990s.
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I → build → mid-1990s
I’ve written my own software.
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I → write → software
I’ve gotten into flying FPV drones and so forth.
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I → get → drones
There’s a lot of stuff I’ve spent time doing over the years.
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I → ’ → years
I want to get into some of these in particular, but what draws you to that?
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what → want → that
I guess the first question is, I think a lot of writers and thinkers of your stature are just consumed by the writing and the work.
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lot → guess → writing
Before we get into why a manual hobby, and why these particular manual hobbies—did you always just have a need for something in a totally different realm?
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you → get → realm
Did you discover at some point that it was good for your happiness, or your productivity?
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it → discover → happiness
What made you first think, I should get into making furniture?
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I → make → furniture
Well, as an intellectual, what you do is just produce words.
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do → produce → words
You sit in front of a computer screen, you write things, you give lectures, you talk to people.
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you → sit → people
I became a professor, so I teach.
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I → become → ?
But it’s very hard to know what the concrete outcome of any of that stuff is, because it’s all very ethereal in many ways.
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it → ’ → ways
Maybe it did have a profound influence, but you’re really not going to know that.
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you → have → that
On the other hand, if you build beds for your children, as I did, they’re all sleeping on them, and you know it’s actually something useful.
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it → build → them
I built a kitchen table probably thirty years ago, and we still use it every day.
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we → build → it
There’s something very satisfying about producing a material object that is useful in a more immediate way than any of the stuff I’ve written or talked about.
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I → ’ → stuff
I have hobbies like playing soccer, and recently I got into playing poker and things like that.
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I → have → that
In terms of producing things, I really don’t do much other than cooking, and I enjoy cooking for some of the same reasons—it’s a very concrete result, and it’s also a very fast result, unlike writing a book.
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it → produce → book
You take a bunch of raw ingredients, and an hour later you have a meal that’s sometimes a little disappointing and sometimes, hopefully, delicious, and there’s a great satisfaction in that.
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that → take → that
How do you feel about some of the more philosophical takes—Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and so on?
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you → feel → Maintenance
There’s a whole niche of books that depict this as a personal virtue, but also try to derive some kind of political significance from the act of creating something with your hands.
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that → ’ → hands
Well, I’m not sure I would attribute any philosophical significance to it.
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I → ’m → it
I do think there’s a certain practical side to this, and it really has to do with individual autonomy.
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it → think → autonomy
We are living in a world dominated by these giant tech companies—Meta, X, Apple, Amazon, Google, and so forth—and you become very dependent on them.
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you → live → them
…and 207 more, not listed.
The Aporia
